>Subject: son of man

>Date: 1/2/03 10:24 PM Eastern Standard Time

>From: Reachto1

>Message-id: <20030102222436.12679.00118004@mbs-r01.aol.com>

> 

> 

>

>  Why Jesus called himself  more than 81 times "son of man" if he was

>thinking for one-second he was God.

> How Christians justify "son of man," means God?

> How God will call himself "son of man," when he is NOT?

> 

> How many times Jesus was called a "servant of God"? Again, How Christians

>justify "servant of God" means God?

> 

> Why every one knows what Jesus was, except Jesus?

> 

 

Subject: Re: son of man

Date: 1/3/2003 10:14 AM Eastern Standard Time

From: ThnksbetoGod

Message-id: <20030103101455.24980.00042056@mbs-m04.aol.com>

 

 

Funny, I can imagine you spitting these words out. But, I'll assume you're sincere in your query.

 

You know, I've seen at least 81 press conferences where President George W. Bush is addressed as "Mr. President" by reporters. Not, "Mr. President of the United States". So, how can we assume he really is President of the United States, maybe he's just a President of some other country?

 

I'll tell you why.

 

Context is king. It's assumed.

 

And, to be fair, he is referred as President of the United States on occasion, it's just not thought to be something that needs to be stated every...single....time.

 

Now, to the Son of man question.

 

The term Son of man is used for Jesus and by Jesus Himself many times in the Bible and this term describes Jesus as "seed of the woman or a human".

 

Daniel saw a vision about Son of man coming in the cloud in Daniel  7:13-14,

 

"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13-14)

 

By this term His humanity is indicated and the expression "coming with the clouds of heaven" in Daniel 7:13, His divinity and deity. The verse Daniel 7:14 says that Messiah would be human but at the same time He would be a divine King to whom belongs all the glory and that His dominion is an everlasting dominion. The term "Son of Man" was used by Christ himself, to show how, as a man, He lived a perfect and holy life and died on our behalf.

 

This is the context you're missing.

 

RKC: Already addressed.

 

 

 

Now, to a few other things in the Bible that you might not be aware of concerning Jesus identity, who was both fully man and fully God:

 

"I shall come and walk among you and I shall be your God and you shall be my people."-Leviticus 26:12

 

RKC: It’s not meant to be taken literally. God is saying my presence will be with you. Do you really think Jesus was walking in the Garden (Gen. 3:8)?

 

 

 

"Blessed are you who are persecuted for my sake" (Mt5:11)

 

(Not for righteousness sake, not for God's sake, MY sake. Now, great religious teachers deflect attention from themselves-they focus attention on God, don't they? Seems like Jesus is.)

 

John 15

²⁰ Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also.

²¹ But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him who sent me.

 

RKC: Jesus directs attention to “him who sent me”.

 

 

"Blessed are you, your sins are forgiven"(Mk2:6)

 

(What? Only God can forgive other people's sins! Hmmmmmm.)

 

Mark 2:10

But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he said to the paralytic—

 

John 5:30

"I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

 

John 5:19

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.

 

John 8:28

So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me.

 

 

"you've heard it said...but I say unto you" "a new commandment I give"(Mt5:21,22)/(Jn13:34)

 

(Jesus is giving commandments...like....God.)

 

Footnotes for Matthew 5:21

Jesus engages the ten commandments and other aspects of Mosaic Law. His teaching reveals God’s purpose in giving the law (19.3-9).

 

David Guzik Study Guide for John Chapter 13

C. A new commandment

3. (34-35) In light of the coming storm, Jesus tells of a new commandment

a. New implies freshness, or the opposite of outworn, rather than recent or different

b. "Whereas the Old Testament demanded that men should love their neighbors as themselves, the New Law is that they should love the brethren better than themselves, and die for their friends" (Hoskyns)

c. The command to love wasn't new; but the extent of love just displayed by Jesus was new, as would be the display of the cross. Love was newly defined from His example

d. Love is the mark of the fellowship of true believers, and all other criteria are strictly secondary

 

 

 

"Father, glorify me with the Glory which I had since before the world began" "I've come down from heaven" (Jn17:5;Isa42:8)

 

(Jesus exists for all time. Has only a man ever done that?)

 

RKC: Was Soloman only a man (Proverbs 8:22-30)? Also, note how Jesus seperates himself from the “only true God” in John 17:3.

 

 

 

He is the judge of the world-"one day, people are going to stand before...me" (Mt25:31;Joel3:12)

 

RKC: This “judging” will not occur on Judgement Day. This refers to when Jesus(p) returns to Earth.

 

 

 

"I am the way, the truth, and the life" "I am the light of the world"(Jn8:58;18:5-6;Ex3:14)

 

(Not a way, not one way. the way! Is he a megalomaniac? Is He possessed? Or in fact, in a different category from all the other religious teachers? He is, quite obviously, especially for one so literally minded as you, the Son of God.)

 

RKC: He is in a different category of religious teacher. He’s a Prophet (Luke 7:16). This is something all Prophets did. All were the “way” for their chosen nation. All brought the “truth”. All were a “light” to their nation. Think about his audience.

 

 

 

"The dead shall hear my voice and they shall rise" "I give life to whoever I please"(Jn5:25,29)(Jn5:21)

 

(Wait now! This isn't the way "good rabbis" speak in the first century, folks! Must be more than a rabbi.)

 

RKC: Again, he is more than that. He’s a Prophet (Luke 24:19). This is saying Jesus will signal the final resurrection. This isn’t proof that he is God. Also, please look at my response to Mark 2:6 above.

 

 

 

Jesus taught people to pray in His name (Jn14:13-14)

 

RKC: This is why….

 

John 15

⁷ If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

⁸ By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.

⁹ As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.

 

 

 

All should "honor the Son just as they honor the Father...no one honors the Father unless you honor the Son" (Jn5:23)

 

(How arrogant would this be if Jesus is not Lord?)

 

RKC: It’s not arrogant at all. Prophets are due this amount of respect. You can’t honor the Father and defame, demonize, harass, persecute, and kill his Prophets and Messengers.

 

 

 

"If you see me, you see the Father" (Jn14:8-10)

 

RKC: He’s talking about the message and teachings.

 

John 14

¹⁰ Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

¹¹ Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

¹² Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

 

 

Jesus accepted worship (Mt28:9,17;Jn20:28)

 

RKC: This is not definitive. Webster’s Dictionary  reads…

 

Main Entry: ²worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship·ing or -ship·ping
Date: 13th century
transitive senses
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
intransitive senses : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship
synonym see REVERE
- wor·ship·er or wor·ship·per noun

 

So it is possible to “worship” a Prophet and not believe he is God. Is not #2 how we should view Prophets? Let’s look at the Greek word which “worshipped” is translated from. Strong’s relates this word is proskuneo. This same word is used to refer to a slave owner (Matthew 18:26). Since Jesus never calls for himself to be worshipped and teaches the Father should be worshipped (John 4:23), I’ll stick with the 2nd definition.

 

 

 

The NT calls him and treats Him like God (Jn1:1;20:28;Rom.9:5;Tit.2:13;Col1:15-19,2:9;ICor.1:2;2Cor.12:8 10;Heb.1:3-10)

 

John 1:1 – Link; also, please see my response to John 17:5 above.

 

Word, the – In John 1:1-14 (see John, Gospel of), John’s assertion that in Jesus of Nazereth the Word became flesh (John 1:14) – i.e., an actual human being (see Flesh in the NT) – was an attempt – apparently successful, if the subsequent influence of the gospel is any criterion – to put into language intelligible and acceptable to his contemporaries, pagan as well as Jewish and Christian, the basic Christian conviction that through the life, teaching, actions, and death of the man Jesus a new revelation of God had been given, different in kind from that made throught the prophets (Heb 1:1)….Christ is the archetypal, true man, the man “made in God’s image” (Gen. 1:27); that Christ is the image of God is affirmed in II Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3; and implied in John 1:14. Now, Wisdom, already personified, and regarded as God’s agent in creation, is also described as “a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the workng of God, and an image of his goodness (Wisd. Sol. 7:26)”.

 

 

Jesus says "prin abraam genesthai ego eimi." Or, "Before Abraham was existing, I am". John 8:58

 

RKC: What does Exodus 3:14 say in Greek? Does it say “ego eimi”? They should be the same thing, right?

 

 

The Jews, after Jesus Christ said this, sought to stone Him for blasphemy, for saying He was God, for the Jews immediately recognized this as identical to God saying "I am that I am" in Exodus 3:14.

 

It was apparently the last straw for the Jews, who had heard Jesus say, among other things, "I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of me", "You are from below, I am from above", "Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins", "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father", "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death". Saying He essentially was God, well, that was just too much for the Jews:

 

Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for

blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God"  John 10

 

RKC: Do believe everything Jesus’ enemies had to say about him (Matthew 11:18,19; Mark 3:21,22; John 8:48)? Their accusations are not believable and amount to “trumped up charges”. Also, Jesus responds, “I am God’s Son” (very similar to Psalms 2:7). Where is the “I AM GOD!” or “BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY”?