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SkllPhkp: Yes, cults and religions are
not too different from each other and people are free to believe in anything
they want but cults deservingly have negative connotations for a reason.
Everyone would be disturbed to find out that a significant other has recently
joined a cult. Why? The issue is how far their members are willing to go and
how they're convinced to do things that they wouldn't normally or shouldn't do.
This is exactly what islam tends to do to its followers.
RKC: Based on your definition, Jesus(p)
could have been considered the leader of a cult. From the perspective of these
merchants and shoppers, he was doing something which “normally or shouldn’t” be
done.
Matthew 21
12 And Jesus entered the
13 He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a
house of prayer'; but you make it a den of robbers."
SkllPhkp: I think islam has all the harmful features of a cult: the
level of brainwashing, mind control, deceipt …
RKC: So if there is any
deceipt in your post, what should I believe about you?
SkllPhkp: …and killing in the name of islam. Yes, islam encourages
people to kill nonbelievers in the name of Allah.
RKC: Islam allows killing in a just war
under certain conditions. Do you accept this as part of the Bible?
Deuteronomy 20
10 "When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer
terms of peace to it.
11 And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all
the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve
you.
12 But if it
makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it;
13 and when the
LORD your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword,
14 but the
women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its
spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of
your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you.
15 Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you,
which are not cities of the nations here.
16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives
you for an inheritance, you
shall save alive nothing that breathes,
17 but you
shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the
Canaanites and the Per'izzites, the Hivites and the Jeb'usites, as the LORD your God has
commanded;
18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their
abominable practices which they have done in the service of their gods, and so
to sin against the LORD your God.
SkllPhkp: Muhammed taught his disciples by example, command, and
precept that they could and should kill…
RKC: As any good commander
should do.
SkllPhkp: …and rob in Allah's name
RKC: Example or source?
Taking Without Right
The Prophet put a certain man in
charge of charity. When the man arrived, he said, “This is for all of you, and
this is given to me.” Then the Messenger of God stood up in the pulpit, praised
and extolled God, then said, “Now then, I put a man from among you in charge of
a task God has entrusted to me; then he comes back and says, ‘This is for all
of you, and this is a gift that has been given to me.’ If he was right why
didn’t he stay in his parents’ house and wait for his gift to come to him? By God, whatever any one of you
takes without a right, he will meet God the Exalted on the day of resurrection
carrying it.”
The Wisdom of the Prophet: Sayings
of the Muhammad
Translated by Thomas Cleary
Page 114-115
SkllPhkp: and force people to submit to Islam:
RKC: Muhammad(p) didn’t
teach this.
Surah 2
256. Let there be no compulsion in
religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes
in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And
Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Surah 109
1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been
wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Surah 2
208. O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and
follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.
Surah 3
159. It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou
dost deal gently with them Wert
thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee:
so pass over (Their faults), and ask for ((Allah)'s) forgiveness for them; and
consult them in affairs (of moment). Then, when thou hast Taken a decision put
thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).
SkllPhkp: Koran
(4:89) They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may
be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake
their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them
and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among
them"
RKC: Why did you post verse 89 and not include verse 90?
Surah 4
89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty
(of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from
fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He
could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore
if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees
of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
SkllPhkp: Koran (9:5) "Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege
them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship
and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving,
Merciful."
RKC: Go back and read
the preceding verses. May I ask how you came across these two verses?
Surah 9
Summary – Treaties with those Pagans who have
treacherously broken their terms are denounced, but four months’ time is given
for adjustments or repentance. Pagans to be excluded from the sacred Mosques.
Infidelity to be fought (9:1-29, and C. 93).
C.93 (9:1-29.) – If the If the Pagans repeatedly
break Their treaties, denounce the treaties, But give them time either to
repent Or to prepare for the just punishment Of their treachery. Punish the
chiefs Of the treacherous, and destroy them. But if one of them
seek asylum, Give it: let him hear the Word Of Allah and escort him to
security. Be true to the true, but fight those Who are false to plighted word
And taunt you for your Faith. No one has the right to approach The mosques of
Allah unless He believes in Allah and follows Allah's Law, the law of
righteousness.
1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His
Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual
alliances:-
Footnotes for Verse 1
1246. …The Pagans and
enemies of Islam frequently made treaties of mutual alliances with the Muslims.
The Muslims scrupulously
observed their part, but the Pagans violated their part again and again when it
suited them. After some year’s experience it became imperative to
denounce such treaties altogether. This was done in due form, with four month’s
notice, and a chance was given to those who faithfully observed their pledges,
to continue their alliance.
2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and
forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot
frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those
who reject Him.
3. And
an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the
day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty)
obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if
ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous
penalty to those who reject Faith.
4. (But
the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered
into alliance and who have
not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil
your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the
righteous.
Footnotes for Verse 4
1249. The sacred duty of
fulfilling all obligations of every kind, to Muslims and non Muslims, in public
as well as private life, is a cardinal feature of Muslim ethics. The question
of what is to be done with those who abuse this principle by failing in their
duty but expect the Muslims to do their part is not to be solved (in the case
of treaties) by a general denunciation of treaties but by a careful
consideration of the cases where there has been fidelity and not treachery.
There we are enjoined to give the strictest fidelity, as it is a part of
righteousness and our duty to Allah.
5. But
when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye
find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every
stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and
practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is
Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Footnotes for Verse 5
1250. The emphasis is on
the first clause: it is
only when the four months of grace are past, and the other party shows no signs
of desisting from its treacherous designs by right conduct, that the state of
war supervenes -between Faith and Unfaith.
1251. When war becomes
inevitable, it must be prosecuted with vigour. According to the English phrase,
you cannot fight with kid gloves. The fighting may take the form of slaughter,
or capture, or siege, or ambush and other stratagems. But even then there is
room for repentance and amendment on the part of the guilty party, and if that
takes place, our duty is
forgiveness and the establishment of peace.
1252. The repentance must be sincere, and that is
shown by conduct-a religious spirit of true prayer and charity. In that case we
are not to bar the gate against the repentant. On the contrary we must do all
we can to make their way easy, remembering that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most
Merciful.
6. If
one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may
hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is
because they are men without knowledge.
Footnotes for Verse 6
1253. Even among the
enemies of Islam, actively fighting against Islam, there may be individuals who
may be in a position to require protection. Full asylum is to be given to them,
and opportunities provided for hearing the Word of Allah. If they accept the
Word, they become Muslims and brethren, and no further question arises. If they do not see their way
to accept Islam, they will require double protection. (1) from the Islamic
forces openly fighting against their people, and (2) from their own people, as
they detached themselves from them- Both kinds of protection should be ensured
for them, and they should be safely escorted to a place where they can be safe.
Such persons only err through ignorance, and there may be much good in them.
1254. Ma'manah
(secure) - place or opportunity of being secure from all harm.
SkllPhkp: It is
no surprise where fanaticism and terrorism originate from.
RKC: It originates from ignorance.
SkllPhkp: When asking whether islam is a cult, I've backed my assertion
with facts…
RKC: Up to this point,
you’ve been hypocritical, made unfounded accusations, and taken a couple of
verses from the Qur’an out of context.
SkllPhkp: …and compared them with characteristics of a dangerous cult.
RKC: Not very well.
SkllPhkp: As expected, not a single person has refuted any of the
information or historical facts given. I remember someone posting a message
elsewhere criticizing islam by providing some facts. Not a single muslim who
responded refuted any of the facts and they deliberately avoided answering any
questions. Instead they posted threatening and hateful messages.
RKC: Why didn’t you provide a link for this “threatening and
hateful” message?
SkllPhkp: Are these two common responses that Islam breeds?
RKC: No, but I’ve seen a
lot of hateful Christians on this board over the last two years.
SkllPhkp: Either they don't know
the answers or deny the possibility that they might be wrong.
RKC: You should consider
whether you are wrong before you make a post and represent it as fact.
SkllPhkp: They don't even take the time to read it. At least I've taken
the time to read some of the quranic verses and historical facts about islam.
RKC: Based on your post,
you haven’t read the Qur’an very well. What has your approach to the Qur’an
been? Are you reading it cover-to-cover? Are you going to selected verses (like
above) based on a hate Islam site? You know they’ll deceive you, right?
SkllPhkp: Besides, if I'm wrong, then prove it to me by refuting my
facts. If you believe in something so passionately, why wouldn't you be able to
answer questions about it or wouldn't you want to do some research and find out
more what you're getting into.
RKC: Your absolutely
correct. So, I ask you this question which no Christian has answered for me.
Who made the below change relating to the 1st Commandment? Has the
Bible been tampered with? Which is the “divinely inspired Word of God”?
1 John 5:6-9 (KJV)
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not
by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the
Spirit is truth.
7 For there are
three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and
these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in
earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater:
for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1 John 5:6-9 (RSV)
6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with
the water only but with the water and the blood.
7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the
Spirit is the truth.
8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the
water, and the blood; and these three agree.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is
greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son.
SkllPhkp: Muslims
follow almost blindly their religion just like members from dangerous cults do.
RKC: I don’t follow religion blindly, but a
portion of every religion’s followers do so blindly. Some more than others…
SkllPhkp: They submit to islam and follow the teachings of muhammed,
which only breed hatred.
RKC: Islam doesn’t breed
hatred. Ignorance breeds hatred.
SkllPhkp: Muhammed is their messiah,…
RKC: Muhammad(p) never
said he is the Messiah. The Qur’an says Jesus is the Messiah.
Surah 5
75.
Christ the son of
Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away
before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily)
food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways
they are deluded away from the truth!
SkllPhkp: …the one that they worship…
RKC: This is what I’m
talking about. How can you claim to have “taken the time to read some of the
quranic verses and historical facts about islam.” and come to this conclusion?
Muslims do not worship Muhammad(p) or any man. Only the Father. If there was
one message in the Qur’an, this would be it. This is a huge mistake on your
part. Are you going to admit you didn’t “know the answer or deny the
possibility” that you were wrong?
Surah 3
144. Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many Were the apostle that
passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on
your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to
Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him)
with gratitude.
SkllPhkp: …and model their lives after.
RKC: Muslims do
this…..it’s called having a role model.
Surah 33
21. Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct)
for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in
the Praise of Allah.
Surah 68
4. And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.
SkllPhkp: But do they really know what kind of person he was?
RKC: Of course.
SkllPhkp: Muhammed, the so-called prophet, obviously suffered from
hallucinations in which he claimed to have conversations with the archangel
Gabriel.
RKC: Your free to
believe whatever you want. That’s your opinion, not fact
SkllPhkp: Even if we were to assume that these "voices" he
heard were real, how do we know that they were not from the devil?
RKC: How do you know Paul’s voices were
real? What’s you criteria for determining what is real?
SkllPhkp: Assume for a moment he never existed. If you were to meet a
person like him today would you do what this madman tells you to do?
RKC: Muhammad(p) was not
a “madman” and yes, I would do what he tells me to do..
SkllPhkp: A madman who conquered and murdered Zoroastrians, jews,
christians, and pagans, including his own people who wouldn't convert to islam
by force, who enslaved the women and children of those people that he
conquered, who tortured and assassinated those who opposed him and criticized
him.
RKC: Can you give
examples? Who, when, where, circumstances, Hadiths (with reliabilty classifications),
Qur’anic teaching, etc…..
SkllPhkp: All of these from the "merciful" Muhammed. What
kind of "religion" allows someone to take a 9-year old child as a
wife (Aesha) by force, which is practically child rape,…
RKC: The
Institute of Islamic Information and Education: Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
The Institute of Islamic
Information and Education: Ayesha’s Age
SkllPhkp: who steals the wife (Zaynab) of your adopted son (Zaid).
RKC: Taken from Understanding-Islam.com:
The
Marriages of the Prophet (pbuh)
“This marriage was
prompted by a special incident. Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) got married to Hadhrat
Zayed (ra) - the freed slave and adopted son of the Prophet (pbuh). This
marriage took place on the insistence of the Prophet (pbuh), although Hadhrat
Zaynab (ra) did not want it. The reason was that she belonged to the elite
of Makkah and Hadhrat Zayed (ra) was a former slave. The marriage
remained on rocks throughout the period that they lived together because Hadhrat
Zaynab (ra) considered herself socially superior to Hadhrat Zayed
(ra). Tired by their regular clashes and Hadhrat Zaynab's (ra)
indifference towards him, Hadhrat
Zayed (ra)
showed his intention to divorce Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) time and again.
However, the Prophet (pbuh) persuaded him not to do so, because he felt
responsible for any mishap, as the marriage had taken place on his insistence.
Secondly the message of equality of slaves and free humans that he wanted to
practically communicate through this marriage would fail in case of divorce.
Nevertheless, because of these troubles of the marriage, foreseeing divorce as
inevitable in the near future, the Prophet (pbuh) was already considering to
marry Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) if as the last resort the incident of divorce
did take place, in order to console her (because the marriage had taken place
on the Prophet's insistence). Moreover, keeping in mind the social status of slaves, it was highly
unlikely that any person of a good social standing would take Hadhrat Zaynab
in marriage, as she would then be a divorcee of a slave. The only
reluctance, which the Prophet (pbuh) had in this regard, was that marriage with
the divorcee or the widow of one's adopted son was considered prohibited,
exactly like marriage with the divorcee or the widow of one's real son.
However, ultimately, Hadhrat Zayed (ra) divorced Hadhrat Zaynab (ra).
It was at this juncture that the Qur'an intervened and in order to correct the
wrong tradition (of holding the divorcee or the widow of one's adopted son
prohibited), the Prophet (pbuh) was directed to marry Hadhrat Zaynab.
While directing the Prophet (pbuh) to marry Hadhrat Zaynab (ra), the
Qur'an has specifically mentioned that because as the last prophet Mohammad
(pbuh) is also supposed to correct all the wrong traditions that are followed
in the name of the Shari`ah and thereby complete God's religion in
totality, therefore it is essential that this tradition be corrected by the
Prophet (pbuh).
SkllPhkp: The
more I learn about islam the more I'm convinced how hatred and intolerance are
inseparable from it.
RKC: Maybe you should
try a better source of learning.
SkllPhkp: Islam is a faith of absolutely no value or validity to our
modern society,…
RKC: Again….that’s your
opinion, not a fact
SkllPhkp: … and simply copies, in distorted form, practices and beliefs
from Judaism and Christianity.
RKC: Based on your post,
your view of Islam is very distorted. I believe there are many similarities
between Judaism and Islam because they originate from the same God. I’d like to
hear what Islam has copied from Christianity.
SkllPhkp: Ironically, these are two religions Muhammed despised till
his death.
RKC: It doesn’t sound
like he despised them.
Surah 2
62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those
who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any
who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with
their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
SkllPhkp: Take the Quran and its verses along with islamic values and
you'd find too many irreconcilable inconsistencies, discrepancies and more
holes than
RKC: I think you’ve
demonstrated your understanding of the Qur’an and it needs work. Where are the
“irreconcilable inconsistencies, discrepancies, and more holes” in the Qur’an?
Surah 4
82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)?
Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much
discrepancy.
SkllPhkp: I
realized that anything you say against their beliefs might fall in deaf ears
among muslims. Attempting to rationalize with them is practically futile since
they're in denial. It's like teaching an old dog new tricks.
RKC: We’ll see how
rational you are when/if you answer my questions.
SkllPhkp: How could 1.2 billion people be wrong? (once upon a time most
of humanity believed that the planet was flat and the earth was at the center
of the universe-they couldn't have been more wrong. not to mention that there
twice as many christians)
RKC: What do numbers mean? Nothing. How many
died in Noah’s flood? What % of mankind perished?
SkllPhkp: For muslims, everything is a jewish or American conspiracy.
The jews control the media, the
RKC: That’s funny. Most
of these conspiracies I’ve only heard from Christians.
SkllPhkp: I don't think muslims are the problem; islam is the problem
and people are being sucked into this cult and deceived into believing that
anything to the contrary is false.