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tcambat: thx for your reply. I sense you are getting a bit angry with me by your recent post.first of all i was here to get my questions answered but
some of yours answers in those sites seemed very biased (no offense).>>
Giish1983: You better read those posts carefully becuase what I provide as reference is often non-muslim work since you folk wouldnt accept
Muslim works.......what is it you said.....they would be biased anyway!
tcambat:the notion of allah in the arabic bible is simple. what does allah mean in english-God.. because that was the only word for GOD the
translators had to use that word because it is the only name for GOD in the arabic world.>>
Giish1983: Poor excuse. If you think Allah is a moon god or represents a pagan god why would you or anyone use that word anyway? Your logic
amuses me.
tcambat:and the notion of paul. an apostle is one sent by JESUS to proclaim the gospel and JESUS sent paul to preach to the gentiles.>>
Giish1983: Can you provide any evidence outside of Pauls writings that Paul was sent and chosen by Jesus.
tcambat:that is why he calls himself and apostle.>>
Giish1983: Do any of the other disciples address him as an Apostle?
tcambat: and your historical evidence is written by some guy who probably wrote it in the 90s. i want historical meaning in that time there was a
manuscript or something.i would really appreciate it if u got it from guys who wrote it back than.>>
Giish1983: Now where do you think these folk got their references from? BTW Guillaume didnt write in the 90's. If someone writes a book now
and quotes something from the 1600's does that make it unreliable?
tcambat:and when JESUS used that word in his teachngs (Eloh) it translates to alah not allah(im not sure about this pls correct me if im wrong).>>
Giish1983: It is about time some of you started to think smartly. In the Quran Allah says He created Adam and Eve and sent the Prophets
Abraham, Noah, Moses, Isaac, Jacob and of course Jesus. Are you going to admit Jesus was sent by a Pagan god? In the Quran it also states
thatAllah sent the Torah and the Injil(Gospel). So are you now going to admit it was a pagan god that revealed the Torah and the Injil.
I dont need to go beyond the Quran to show your stupidity in persisting with this arguement about Allah being one of the pagan idols. But I will
humor you a little. I quoted a source from one of the anti-Islamic sites which of course you dismissed. That site used it to show christian influence
on Islam. To your question are there any sources that show that Christians used the word Allah for God before the advent of Muhammad and
during the time of Muhammad.....if you had looked at that reference you will find the following:
Besides, we must remember, there were the Jews and the Christians with whom the Arabs had constant opportunities of a close cultural contact.
And naturally these Jews and Christians both used the same word Allah to denote their own Biblical God. This must have exerted a great
influence on the development of the pre-Islamic concept of Allah among the Arabs towards a higher concept than that of a mere tribal divinity, not
only among the town-dwellers but also among the pure Bedouins of the desert.
II) The case in which we observe the Jews and the Christians of pre-Islamic times using the very word Allah in referring to their own God. In this
case "Allah" means of course the God of the Bible, a typically monotheistic concept of God. Exceedingly interesting examples are found in this
respect, for instance, in the work of 'Adi
b. Zayd, a, well-known Arab Christian, the Court poet of al-Hirah. (God and Man in the Quran, Toshihiko Izutsu, Chapter 4: Allah, p96- 119, 1980)
Now lets go back to the Quran and see how stupid you, morey and the others look:
The pre-Islamic concept of Allah included Worship of idols which were considered necessary in reaching Allah. During the days of the Prophet
Muhammed (PBUH) The people kept asking him what Allah was like. Whether He was made of Gold or Silver. It was in answer tothis question
that the Chapter of Unity, was revealed:
Now here is the crux of the matter.....Allah is telling Muhammad to tell the Christians and Jews(the People of the Book) adn the word for God
used by God is:
tcambat:and that thing about kenneth cragg i have no idea who he is.>>
Giish1983: Now it seems you just throw names and words around willy nilly. You quoted me the woek of Kenneth Cragg as your reference. It
seems you never really read anything by him other than what you gleaned at a website that had you clapping your hands because it supported
your views on Islam.......here is your previous post where you referenced his work...I have changed the color of the name of his book so you can
see it:
>>i just wanted to give u some references for u to the topic .
>>Encyclopedia of islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset,
>>Hartman;Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913,I:302
>>Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643
>>Encyclopedia of World mythology and legend "The facts of file"
>>Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics
>>The call of the minaret New York oup,1956, p 31
>>i just wanted to show u this refernecse so if u get free time u
>>can go and search this.
Click here: Re: allah and the moon god
Now if you tell me that its a different book and not by Cragg please let me know!
tcambat:and talking about morals i hope u were not reffering to me as a rat.and yes i did come on this board for questions and i objected to some
of them and it seems u are getting angry at me.look im tired of arguing with u lets just call it quits.>>
Giish1983: No I doubt if you came to have your questions answered. Never mind the historical facts. I showed you verse from the Quran to which
there can be no doubt as to what the God we worship is all about. Those verse negate anyones inferences that the God we worship is a moon god.
BTW you made statements about school texts in North Carolina and Ali who is from there challenged you on this.....we are all waiting with baited
breath...
Here are a few more verses from the Quran and after reading them decide for your self if you are a rat or not:
some of yours answers in those sites seemed very biased (no offense).>>
Giish1983: You better read those posts carefully becuase what I provide as reference is often non-muslim work since you folk wouldnt accept
Muslim works.......what is it you said.....they would be biased anyway!
tcambat:the notion of allah in the arabic bible is simple. what does allah mean in english-God.. because that was the only word for GOD the
translators had to use that word because it is the only name for GOD in the arabic world.>>
Giish1983: Poor excuse. If you think Allah is a moon god or represents a pagan god why would you or anyone use that word anyway? Your logic
amuses me.
tcambat:and the notion of paul. an apostle is one sent by JESUS to proclaim the gospel and JESUS sent paul to preach to the gentiles.>>
Giish1983: Can you provide any evidence outside of Pauls writings that Paul was sent and chosen by Jesus.
tcambat:that is why he calls himself and apostle.>>
Giish1983: Do any of the other disciples address him as an Apostle?
tcambat: and your historical evidence is written by some guy who probably wrote it in the 90s. i want historical meaning in that time there was a
manuscript or something.i would really appreciate it if u got it from guys who wrote it back than.>>
Giish1983: Now where do you think these folk got their references from? BTW Guillaume didnt write in the 90's. If someone writes a book now
and quotes something from the 1600's does that make it unreliable?
tcambat:and when JESUS used that word in his teachngs (Eloh) it translates to alah not allah(im not sure about this pls correct me if im wrong).>>
Giish1983: It is about time some of you started to think smartly. In the Quran Allah says He created Adam and Eve and sent the Prophets
Abraham, Noah, Moses, Isaac, Jacob and of course Jesus. Are you going to admit Jesus was sent by a Pagan god? In the Quran it also states
thatAllah sent the Torah and the Injil(Gospel). So are you now going to admit it was a pagan god that revealed the Torah and the Injil.
I dont need to go beyond the Quran to show your stupidity in persisting with this arguement about Allah being one of the pagan idols. But I will
humor you a little. I quoted a source from one of the anti-Islamic sites which of course you dismissed. That site used it to show christian influence
on Islam. To your question are there any sources that show that Christians used the word Allah for God before the advent of Muhammad and
during the time of Muhammad.....if you had looked at that reference you will find the following:
Besides, we must remember, there were the Jews and the Christians with whom the Arabs had constant opportunities of a close cultural contact.
And naturally these Jews and Christians both used the same word Allah to denote their own Biblical God. This must have exerted a great
influence on the development of the pre-Islamic concept of Allah among the Arabs towards a higher concept than that of a mere tribal divinity, not
only among the town-dwellers but also among the pure Bedouins of the desert.
II) The case in which we observe the Jews and the Christians of pre-Islamic times using the very word Allah in referring to their own God. In this
case "Allah" means of course the God of the Bible, a typically monotheistic concept of God. Exceedingly interesting examples are found in this
respect, for instance, in the work of 'Adi
b. Zayd, a, well-known Arab Christian, the Court poet of al-Hirah. (God and Man in the Quran, Toshihiko Izutsu, Chapter 4: Allah, p96- 119, 1980)
Now lets go back to the Quran and see how stupid you, morey and the others look:
The pre-Islamic concept of Allah included Worship of idols which were considered necessary in reaching Allah. During the days of the Prophet
Muhammed (PBUH) The people kept asking him what Allah was like. Whether He was made of Gold or Silver. It was in answer tothis question
that the Chapter of Unity, was revealed:
- "Say: He Allah (God) is One Allah the Eternally besought, He did not beget nor was He begotten Nor is anything comparable unto Him"
Quran 112 : 1-4
Now here is the crux of the matter.....Allah is telling Muhammad to tell the Christians and Jews(the People of the Book) adn the word for God
used by God is:
- "Say: " people of the Book come to common terms as between us and you, that we all worship none but Allah (God). That we associate no
partner with Him, that we erect not from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other them Allah (God)." 3:64
tcambat:and that thing about kenneth cragg i have no idea who he is.>>
Giish1983: Now it seems you just throw names and words around willy nilly. You quoted me the woek of Kenneth Cragg as your reference. It
seems you never really read anything by him other than what you gleaned at a website that had you clapping your hands because it supported
your views on Islam.......here is your previous post where you referenced his work...I have changed the color of the name of his book so you can
see it:
>>i just wanted to give u some references for u to the topic .
>>Encyclopedia of islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset,
>>Hartman;Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913,I:302
>>Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643
>>Encyclopedia of World mythology and legend "The facts of file"
>>Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics
>>The call of the minaret New York oup,1956, p 31
>>i just wanted to show u this refernecse so if u get free time u
>>can go and search this.
Click here: Re: allah and the moon god
Now if you tell me that its a different book and not by Cragg please let me know!
tcambat:and talking about morals i hope u were not reffering to me as a rat.and yes i did come on this board for questions and i objected to some
of them and it seems u are getting angry at me.look im tired of arguing with u lets just call it quits.>>
Giish1983: No I doubt if you came to have your questions answered. Never mind the historical facts. I showed you verse from the Quran to which
there can be no doubt as to what the God we worship is all about. Those verse negate anyones inferences that the God we worship is a moon god.
BTW you made statements about school texts in North Carolina and Ali who is from there challenged you on this.....we are all waiting with baited
breath...
Here are a few more verses from the Quran and after reading them decide for your self if you are a rat or not:
- "Not all of them are alike: of the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) are a portion that stand (for the right), they rehearse the Signs of
Allah all night long and they prostrate themselves, in adoration. They believe in Allah and the last Day; they enjoin ,what is right and
forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in ranks of the righteous. Of the good they do, nothing
will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right" Quran 3: 113 - 14 - 15.
"Those who Believe in the Holy Quran, those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and Sabians, any who believe in Allah
and the last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward. On them shall he no fear, nor shall they Grieve."Quran 5:69 -- 2:62
Tcambat:first of all to those who dont believe allah was preislamic ask giish he even said that allah was a preislamic in a post
JDHarr: As I pointed out in a previous post, I think that there is a misunderstanding here about the term "pre-Islamic." I think that Gish has also
addressed this point.
Giish1983: Thanks JDH for clarifying that further. He probably believes that because the name Allah was in existence during the pre-Islamic period
that is proof that Allah was a pagan diety.
As I pointed out as far as my reading goes there never was an idol/statue at Mecca or in the Kabba or elsewehere in Arabia called Allah. When
Muhammad started to preach about the one true God called Allah the inhabitants who were so used to seeing what the different pagan gods
looked like began to question the Prophet as to what Allah looked like......appearance, did he have arms that were of silver or gold etc.As
previously mentioned in an earlier post Allah/God
revealed to the Prophet what he was to tell the people and this revelation forms part of the verses in the Quran:
JDHarr: As I pointed out in a previous post, I think that there is a misunderstanding here about the term "pre-Islamic." I think that Gish has also
addressed this point.
Giish1983: Thanks JDH for clarifying that further. He probably believes that because the name Allah was in existence during the pre-Islamic period
that is proof that Allah was a pagan diety.
As I pointed out as far as my reading goes there never was an idol/statue at Mecca or in the Kabba or elsewehere in Arabia called Allah. When
Muhammad started to preach about the one true God called Allah the inhabitants who were so used to seeing what the different pagan gods
looked like began to question the Prophet as to what Allah looked like......appearance, did he have arms that were of silver or gold etc.As
previously mentioned in an earlier post Allah/God
revealed to the Prophet what he was to tell the people and this revelation forms part of the verses in the Quran:
"Say: He Allah (God) is One Allah the Eternally besought, He did not beget nor was He begotten Nor is anything comparable unto Him"
Quran 112 : 1-4